WOLF: Jeff, can I talk about the Espionage Act because that's
really what's at stake now that they've invoked it. I predicted
in my book The End of America that sooner or later,
journalists would be targeted with the Espionage Act in an effort
to close down free speech and (INAUDIBLE) of government. And we
have a precedent for that. In 1917, the Espionage Act was invoked
to go after people like us who were criticizing the first World
War. Publishers, educators, editors. Wait, and people were put in
prison. They were beaten. One guy got a 10-year sentence for
reading the First Amendment. And that intimidation effectively
closed down dissent for a decade in the United States of
America.
The Espionage Act has a very dark and dirty history. And when you start to
use the Espionage Act, to criminalize what—I'm sure you've handled
classified documents in your time as a serious journalist, you know perfectly
well that every serious journalist has seen or heard about classified
information and repeated it. When you start to use the Espionage Act to say
reporting is treachery, reporting is spying, it's espionage, you criminalize
journalism. And that's the history that our country has shown.
TOOBIN: I recognize there is that history. And I'm familiar with the red
scare, too. America is different now.
WOLF: Oh, it's worse in some ways.
TOOBIN: Well, I would disagree.
SPITZER: I want to ask Jeff a question though, because I want to come back
to this Woodward distinction. You would agree with Clay and Naomi, I think,
that Julian Assange would be precisely Bob Woodward if he had been the
recipient of these documents, is that correct?
TOOBIN: I'd have to know a lot more.
SPITZER: But it might be the case.
TOOBIN: It well might be the case.
SPITZER: OK. So your sort of clear articulation of the beginning that he
clearly violated something—maybe not so much.
TOOBIN: I'm not sure. Certainly the attorney general of the United States
seems to think criminal—criminal activity was involved here. But I think
the wholesale taking of enormous quantities of classified information and
putting it on the Internet, even if you don't put all 250,000 documents on, I
think that is a meaningful distinction from what Bob Woodward does.
SPITZER: It seems to me that Bob Woodward arguably did something much more
egregious. He took real-time decisions about why we were going to war in
Afghanistan, the discussions are rationale, where we would go, spoke to the most
senior political and military officials in the nation and blasted that out in
the book. A clear distinction.
TOOBIN: Well, again, there is a distinction in part because the president of
the United States and the vice president are allowed to declassify anything
they want at any time for any reason. So if the president
declassified—
SPITZER: A lot of people who didn't have that power were sourced in that
book. Seemed to be speaking in clear violation. They, in fact, should be
subject to criminal investigations.
TOOBIN: I always wondered why—why Woodward gets away with it. It's an
interesting question.
(CROSSTALK)
—Naomi Wolf, Jeff Toobin, and Eliot Spitzer, talking on CNN's Parker
Spitzer December 23, 2010. (transcript)
(Sidebar: Toobin was either indulging in a little hyperbole, or he was under
the impression that all the cables were released unredacted. Not that it makes
a huge difference, but this is not what happened. Wikileaks has been working
with five newspapers, including the New York Times, to redact the cables
before they are released publicly. As of January 10, 2011, Wikileaks
has released only 2,028 of the 251,287 cables. They have been releasing a few
each day.)
When Dianne Feinstein called for Julian Assange's prosecution under the Espionage Act, she wrote:
Mr. Assange claims to be a journalist and would no doubt rely on the First Amendment to defend his actions. But he is no journalist: He is an agitator intent on damaging our government, whose policies he happens to disagree with, regardless of who gets hurt.
But what exactly is Assange or Wikileaks doing that investigative journalists do not do? Cultivating contacts with privileged access? Obtaining classified documents? Reading them? Publishing them? Refusing to reveal sources? Pushing an agenda? Trying to make a difference? Those are all things journalists do. It is arguably impossible to do the job right without doing those things.
Why does Bob Woodward get away with it?
Why indeed.